Jesse Jackson speaks at Gilliard Municipal Auditorium on March 13, 1978 on the topic "Making a Decision for Equity and Excellence in Education." He honors Septima Clark and talks about progress in social change, responsibility, and opportunity.
ABSTRACT – Dr. Joseph Irvin Hoffman ( 1898- 1988)
AMN 500.001.003
Interviewee: Dr. Joseph Irvin Hoffman ( 1898- 1988)
Interviewer Eugene Hunt, and Edmund Lee Drago, Avery Research
Center
Interview date: 25 Sept 1980, 9 Oct 1980
Location: unknown
Number of cassettes: 1 cassette ( total length 43 minutes); 1 . wav file
Includes transcript of Joseph Irving Hoffman interview ( as heard) with notes by
interviewer, correspondence re: interview, and pamphlet of event honoring interviewee.
In this interview, Dr. Joseph Irvin Hoffman discusses his life in Charleston, SC first as a
boy educated at various Charleston schools, then as a professional doctor on John’s
Island. He recalls his father’s career as a butcher, his family origins, and details the trade
by including his own experiences. Hoffman describes other trades held by prominent
blacks of Charleston, as well as the prevalence of white and black doctors. He discusses
his education at great length, first at a private school run by Miss Winslow, then St.
Peter’s Catholic School, including his experiences with the nuns and religious influences,
and then with his attendance at Burke school, where he mentions the activities of several
teachers including Miss Grimke of the “ infamous” Grimke family. Hoffman also details
his school days at Avery Institute, including his social and academic experiences and the
various black and white teachers he encountered. Of note are several recollections of
various speakers, including Thomas E. Miller, a Republican congressman during
Reconstruction. Dr. Cox, principal of Avery at the time, is also mentioned with fondness;
Hoffman gives descriptions of the programs Cox initiated that caused Avery to become
“ more like a college than a high school”. Also of note are the numerous political
activities that Hoffman witnessed, noting that blacks were often discouraged from voting.
He mentions his presence at Dr. King’s speech in 1963, the hospital strike in Charleston
in 1969, and his participation in several “ sit- ins”. Throughout the interview, Hoffman
shares his general feelings regarding his awareness of segregation and prejudices from
the white community, as well as the effects of having light skin vs. darker skin.
Note to archivist: Archival copies consist of original 500.001.003A and dub
500.001.003B.
Professor Eugene C. Hunt focuses extensively on his early education, speaking about Avery, its teachers and administration, as well as the curriculum they offered. This includes his interest in music, drama, and elocution. He speaks of the expectations on black students for schooling, college, the definition of a good student, and the pride associated with black history. He specifically recalls Principal and Mrs. Benjamin F. Cox, their encouragements to students, and details other teachers that impacted his life. Hunt attended numerous schools as a child, including Avery and the Simonton Elementary school. When mentioning these, he also focuses on the school rivalries that existed during singing competitions, and the differences in education between Avery and other high schools such as Burke Public School. Hunt goes on to include his own family history, including the numerous professions of his family, with his father acting as a general manager of a household, waiter, ships steward, etc. and his mothers profession as a nurse and seamstress. He explains his parents attempts to send all of their children to college, the monetary challenges they and his siblings faced, and the numerous jobs they explored.
He also details the numerous social conditions that existed at the time, including racial tensions that he noticed as a child. Among them, he includes the issue of colorism within the black community, his involvement within the religious community, the geography of Charleston, and discussion of famous families. Avery faced numerous setbacks and discriminations from the white community, and Hunt speaks extensively on the political restrictions and segregation faced by the black community, including their fight against the Charleston School Board for equal pay and the subsequent requirement for teacher certification, in which Hunt participated extensively. Graduates of Avery, such as Septima P. Clark, became well known for being politically active on a local and national level as well, and Hunt speaks of their involvement with the NAACP, local politics, and various politically charged race issues of the 1960s. Hunt continued to be involved in the integration of blacks and whites in public school systems, and describes his extensive involvement with the Harvey Gant case, the first black student to enter an institution of higher learning in South Carolina.
This interview focuses on the life and education of Fredericka McBlair Roberson Martin, born in Charleston, SC around 1892. Raised in Maryville, SC by her godmother, she was sent by her to the Demming School as well as the Avery Normal Institute. She reminisces about the white faculty of Avery and Principal Owens, and emphasizes the standards of academic excellence that the school maintained at the time. She discusses the type of students who attended Avery, the uniforms and dresses, as well as the problems students faced when paying for tuition. She also mentions the social activities that students were involved with, such as athletics and their participation in the Kings Daughters Society, a charitable group of girls that carried food to the poor and elderly at holidays. At Avery, Martin participated in the teacher training courses under the direction of Miss Clyde, and later held various jobs before becoming a teacher in Ridgeville and Edisto Island. While there, she mentions the difficulties she faced while teaching Gullah students, and reveals several other aspects of her personal life, including meeting her husband. Martin talks at length about several leading black professionals in the Charleston area, including doctors such as Dr. Crum and Dr. Johnson, several lawyers, and Congressman Thomas E. Miller.
Miss H. Louise Mouzon speaks of her family history, including her fathers numerous professions as a shoemaker, a carpenter, and a Methodist minister at several Charleston area churches. She also mentions her mothers career as a teacher and her mothers family background, including their history with Avery. Miss Mouzon describes at length her time at Avery, class of 1914, a period of transition when Avery faculty were changing from all white to all back. She includes several reminisces of white and black faculty, particularly under Principal Stevens, and mentions several faculty by name. Miss Mouzon was a graduate of the normal school, and discusses efforts by Congressman Thomas E. Miller to include black teachers in the public school system. After discussing Avery graduation, she includes her own experiences as a school teacher, moving between Latte, Marion, and later Charleston, SC in her teaching career. During the interview, Miss Mouzon makes note of several social conditions within Charleston, speaking of streetcar segregation, the presence of colorism among teachers and students at Avery, the participation of Gullah island students within schools, jealousy from the black community against Avery, and the differences between Burke Public School and Avery.
In this interview, John Potts recalls his experience as the last principal of Avery Normal Institute. Potts served as principal of Avery from 1945 to 1954, when the school merged with Burke and Potts assumed the presidency of Voorhees College in Denmark, SC. Potts discusses the warm reception Charlestonians gave him when he started his job at Avery, it becoming a public institution in 1947 and merging with Burke in 1954. He talks at length the relationship between Avery and the American Missionary Association. He also discusses the education provided by Avery, such as the focus on teacher training and the classical curriculum, and the role of Avery as a meeting place for lectures on race relations and protest groups during the 1950s. He briefly touches on his relationship with Judge J. Waties Waring, and the hostility of Charlestonians towards that relationship as well as the opposition some white people felt towards the independence Avery had in making administrative decisions, both as a private and public institution. Potts discusses issues of class, caste, and color at Avery and in Charleston, including how Avery was viewed by the public, the view of the NAACP. He mentions the many famous visitors who came to stay with the Potts, such as W.E.B. DuBois, Langston Hughes, E. Franklin Frazier, and Rowan Hayes.
In this interview, Julia Brogdon Purnell emphasizes her extensive education as well as teaching career, both at Avery and numerous other schools. Her father was an AME minister, meaning that Mrs. Purnell moved several times throughout her childhood to follow her fathers job. She began her education from Kindergarten until the 5th grade at Claflin University in Orangeburg, SC, and then attended numerous other schools until she went to Atlanta University, class of 1940, which she considers a hub of education for blacks. While in attendance, Mrs. Purnell was exposed to several leading black figures of the time, including Dr. Horace Mann Bond as well as WEB Du Bois. She emphasizes their focus on black history, and how it later affected her teaching career. Without the aid of textbooks, Mrs. Purnell was forced to perform much of her own research or rely on others to teach black history to her students. She describes her experiences at several other educational institutions, including the University of Chicago and University of Michigan. As an educator, Mrs. Purnell discusses her involvement with the NAACP and other civil rights activities, and the secrecy required if one was to be a member and retain a job at the same time. She speaks of the problems she faced in her professional career, being both black and a woman. While at Avery, she also focuses on the curriculum and daily routine while teaching social studies, as well as the caliber of students and their families. She was involved in several extra curricular activities as a teacher, including running the Co-Op and becoming heavily involved in the Glee Club. Of special note is her discussion of colorism and how class affected status within the Avery community.
Julia Craft DeCosta (JDC) discusses her experience at the Avery Normal Institute from fourth grade to graduation in 1916 and living in the city of Charleston, SC. The interview begins with JDCs earliest recollections of school, and a discussion of her parents schooling. Regarding Avery, she discusses when she first attended, who her teachers and classmates were, the caliber of the education, her graduation experience, the switch from white to black teachers and issues of colorism, wealth, and class. She states that what defined ones status was not ones color but ones economic status and that whether one could afford tuition determined whether one attended Avery. She also discusses the limited professional opportunities available to students after graduation, mainly in the tailoring and teaching industries. When probed about her recollections on segregation, she states that her parents and her did not take part as they were people who wouldnt make issues, but that they were involved in St. Marks church. She mentions her mothers family as being descendants from the Kinloch clan in Scotland who arrived in Charleston in the 18th century and the role of religious education and the American Missionary Association. Additionally, she talks at length about individual classmates of hers from a class picture, recalling where they went, whom they married, and who their parents were. People she mentions during the interview include Ellen Saunders, Dr. and Mrs. Benjamin Cox, Sally Cruickshank, Herbert DeCosta Jr., Frank DeCosta, Connie Morrison, Maude Smith Atkins, Geneva Pinckney Singleton, and Beautine DeCosta.
1
TAPE LOG – Leroy Anderson
AMN 500.001.015
Interviewee: Dr. Leroy Anderson ( 1916- )
Interviewer: Dr. Lee Drago
Interview Date: July 10, 1985
Location: unknown
Interview length: Two files ( 64min/ 32min)
Topics: Anderson, Leroy ( 1916- )
Sweatman’s Drugstore
Avery Normal Institute
Benjamin Cox
Color Consciousness
Army
Segregation
Civil Rights
Gresham Meggett School, James Island
Fisk University
University of Lexington, Kentucky
TAPE INDEX
Counter Index Topic
[ Cassette 1 of 1, Side A]
1: 00 Dr. Leroy Anderson was born Nov. 30, 1916 at 73 Church Street. Father
was James William Anderson, mother Anna Pettigru Anderson. Moved
to 157 Smith St. in 1922. His grandfather ( William Anderson) and father
were both born/ raised in Charleston; hence Leroy marrying a wife from
“ out of town” caused discrepancies. Ancestors were house slaves,
possibly on DeSaussure plantation.
4: 00 Father was educated at Burke High School until 9 th grade and then sent
to State College. Worked at Sweatman’s Drugstore ( corner King/ Broad
St.) and Berlins’. Entered the Postal Service during the WWI. Mother
was educated, came from Utahville and wanted to learn sewing in
Charleston.
2
7: 50 Leroy ended up at Avery, father: “ if there was anything out there that
had to be the best, it had to be for his children.” It wasn’t easy to get into
Avery. There were many meetings making inquiries and discussing
tuition concerns. Leroy went to Shaw for 1 st grade along with his friend
Julian Dash. He was taught by Ida Epps; Sally Cruikshank was the
principal at that time.
10: 00 His father had a secure job at Postal Service, although the money wasn’t
much. A test was required to get in but, regardless of the testing results,
if you were black they could randomly decide whether you got the job or
not.
12: 20 Berlins and Sweatman shop owners were like family. Encouraged his
father to try to get in the Postal Service. Leroy says that he was never
taught to “ hate” white people, no resentful feelings. He remembers
specifically a Ku Klux Klan parade on Smith St., which his father
wanted him to see. Attended weddings and funerals of white shop
owners, white and black children used to play together at White Point
Gardens, segregation did not occur until after WWI.
17: 00 Interracial mixing, “ lived it down,” not to white but fair blacks.
18: 10 Leroy went to Avery in 2 nd grade. Typically women went into normal
prep, boys went for college prep. Had Lorry Derricott, Ruth Condice,
and Mr. Robinson “ chip the dark” as teachers. John William Whitacker
( music teacher) became is mentor. No matter how hard you studied,
there were always certain people holding the first/ top spots in the class,
such as Bernice Manigault, George Robinson.
22: 25 They were not privileged because they were fair, rather their parents
were either Avery or from a certain social standing. They were
specifically “ looked out for.”
25: 45 Estimating the percentage of Avery with dark skin in 1923/ 1924 about a
third, 2/ 3 were brown to fair. Among class mates they barely talked
about “ racial discrimination” jabbing about “ syndicates.” Criterion Club
was the unofficial government body.
28: 10 Leroy had a passion for music, took Violin lessons 5 th - 8 th grade with Mr.
Logan. Played chamber and jazz music in an octet group. Fridays was
always Chapel and every other day practice.
31: 30 Mr. Logan was very polished, exacting. An hour lesson every week for
50 cents. Logan’s father worked in the Navy yard, sister taught in public
schools.
3
34: 50 Efforts of parents, Avery, and the Church not to have you identified with
the “ riff- raff,” as close to the major society as possible. “ Oreos” -- black
on the outside, white in the inside. Black history lessons at Avery every
Fri, in the 1960s surprised to find out that they had a history, at Avery
presentations on research every Fri in Rhetorical.
39: 18 Q: Is there a contradiction between Oreo and Black history? A: An
“ adjustment to the realities of society” if you want to get along and get a
job, you have to be a diplomat. You could be an Oreo, but behave
cultured and in a cultivated way.
42: 10 Q: How did this kind of education serve you later? A: He dumped all of
it on the West Coast 1945- 1947 in Seattle. After his war experience, he
asked “ who am I?” Read a lot from Huxley to Sartre and realized that
we were “ not fighting for democracy but for segregation”, as het got of
the ship in color lines. “ I accepted all the enculturation but who am I?”
46: 30 Siblings: James ( died at 6months old due to colic), Anna- Louise, Leroy,
Hercules, and Carl. Despite having little money, he did not feel
disadvantaged; parents protected them from the real trauma of
segregation.
48: 55 He was not really hit by segregation until he was in the army and took
the entrance exam. Overseer told him that he was the first college bread,
black, degree holding guy going into this army with such a good score.
He conducted an Army secretary training, lot of soldiers did not know
how to read and write, lot of them were running from jail. His unit was
segregated, just like movie nights or the canteen. He worked for a white
colonel, moved up the ranks and went overseas with his unit, i. e. New
Guinea and the Philippines.
56: 00 After his return to the US he became interested in education. Taught at
Avery ( under principal Cox) for a bit before going back to Fisk in
1947/ 1948 to get his Masters, returned and taught at Burke with Eugene
[ Hunt?] until 1953. Then he opened W. Greshon Meggott on James
Island. He received a Southern Education Foundation fellowship for the
University of Kentucky to do his doctorate.
59: 35 Referring to Gullah and teaching kids to be “ bilingual,” he argues that it
is okay to talk to your grandparents, but if you go across the Bridge to
get a job you had to learn proper English. He did not encounter any
resentment when he taught out on the Islands. “ Meaning of Avery died
in 1954, the whole impact/ mystique died with it.”
Counter Index Topic
4
[ Cassette 1 of 1, Side B]
0: 00 1953- 1960 W. Greshon Meggott. Emergence of the Civil Rights
Movement: he wasn’t there when it got on the way in the early 1960s.
Passive resistance, highlander, SCLC was actually just beginning. In
Lexington he encountered this.
2: 09 remembers Esau Jenkins as dignified, cultivated quiet man with clear
distinction to Avery though. Knew Septima P. Clark but wasn’t really
aware of her as a Civil Rights leader. All teachers had to sign that they
were not a member of the NAACP, that’s how he became aware of her
since she refused to sign.
4: 00 In Lexington, Kentucky he got his PhD on “ self- concept” and validation
of “ self- reports,” combining sociology and psychology.
9: 20 Classic education at Avery and at Fisk ( he went there 1935- 1939). Color
consciousness was going on there as well. Decagenions Club and
sororities at Fisk as girls tried to be white.
15.30 White girl E. K. Greene [?] walked around, grabbing his arm. “ Friends
that I have didn’t treat me differently.” Teachers at Avery being
prejudiced: Ms. Clyde, outspoken, exacting, disciplinarian woman, not
necessarily color conscious according to Anderson.
20: 25 Brother Hercules was kicked out of Avery because he liked to do things
his way and not Mr. Cox’ way; he went to Lincoln Academy instead.
Traveling with Mr. Cox, Leroy describes him as a loving man. If Cox was
color conscious, he was a master of masking it. Cox only wanted “ the best,
to stretch yourself to the limit.”
22: 45 White missionary and Harlem Renaissance people were all brought down
to Avery by Mr. Cox. Local politics were not discussed as part of the
curriculum; however, Civil Rights issues were constant thing at Friday
nights in the Chapel.
25: 05 Voting: Anybody who owned land could vote, either as free black or
earning/ being granted manumission. Once you were free you could vote.
There were also free blacks owning slaves.
28: 40 Asked about Avery’s essence, he states that it was about “ the fact that it
made us stretch ourselves to be something better than we might have been
if we hadn’t.” Do not brag about being better than somebody else, but do
something to help somebody else. A standard of excellence, sense of
service, reach back and pull somebody else up.
5
32: 00 Tape ends in the middle of a sentence.
TAPE LOG – Lois Averetta Simms 1984
AMN 500.001.025
Interviewee: Lois Simms
Interviewer: Edmund Lee Drago
Interview Date: August 28, 1984
Location: unknown
Interview length: 2 files ( 46min/ 4min)
Topic: Simms, Lois Averetta
Avery Normal Institute
Charleston, SC – Education
Color Consciousness
Civil Rights
Comments: See also Lois Simms Papers at Avery Research Center .
TAPE INDEX
Counter Index Topic
[ Cassette 1 of 1, Side A]
1: 00 Family History: Grandmother Patsy Ferguson, grandfather Jonas
Ferguson owned a farm at Lean Pond, SC (?), some products were kept,
others were sold, such as rice . Patsy oversaw a home of a rich
Charleston family, the Whaleys (?) . They had 14 children . Simms’
mother Anna Anise- Ferguson (?) finished Avery in 1912 . Her father
came to Charleston, SC from Raleigh, NC working in a barbershop on
King St . Simms first school was Wallingford Presbyterian Academy
( through 8 th grade) .
4: 00 In the 1920s, her father opened his own business, a variety shop,
between Vanderhorst and King St . Her mother graduated from Avery
Normal school, and later became a teacher at Wallingford Academy .
Simms started to attend Avery in 1933 at the 9 th grade .
5: 00 Asked whether Avery frightened her at first, she says that Zion
Presbyterian Church on Calhoun St . helped her not to be frightened of
people . Describes B enjamin Cox as a splendid man who by dramatizing
showed all the ugly traits that he didn’t like in humanity, such as
loudness . Cox liked culture and started rhetoricals at Avery . Simms
remembers that her first rhetorical was a piece from Reader’s Digest .
Whole student body, faculty was there . Cox encouraged humanity to
excel .
8: 20 Simms took college prep until 11 th grade and during senior year she took
a pedagogy course with Mrs . Clyde, whom she recalls as pleasant . Clyde
actually knew her father and lived around the corner . She wrote on her
diploma “ Remain as you are and you will succeed . ”
10: 50 1937 “ Flaming Youth” took a pledge at an adjourned bible school not to
take alcoholic beverages . Rhetorical sessions always consisted of 8
speakers, she had 5- 10 pages of own handwriting prepared . It was an
honor to speak, since one was picked by grade average .
12: 30 As Frank DeCosta became principal no changes became evident . Simms
then attended the theology seminary at Johnson C . Smith school in
Charlotte, NC, which was originally male only and it was still unusual
for girls to be there . Since there were no female dormitories yet, girls
lived in a house . Simms double majored in Social Studies and English .
14: 20 She was hired by L . Howard B ennett at Avery . She worked with Mrs .
Clyde as an assistant for first graders using reading charts and other
tools to help them to lean how to read and write . Also did some music
teaching in second and third grade .
18: 10 High school teachers made $ 90 a month, Simms lived with her parents,
and was at Avery for only one year . They were informed at a staff
meeting that the AMA was abandoning schools . She went to Laing high
school in Mt . Pleasant ( principal Rhett) and then to B urke High School
in 1935 under Mr . Grason . She taught Junior/ Seniors . Through the G . I .
B ill soldiers also came to school . Notes that history books at B urke only
dealt with the Colonial period . Charleston High, which was her last
teaching position from 1973- 1974, dealt with slavery in their curriculum .
21: 08 Differences between student/ faculty body from Avery/ B urke: huge staff
at B urke ( 80 people), portable classrooms in cottages, only one main
building . “ Students in those days did really want to learn . ” A diverse
student body from the East side and all over town .
23: 05 East side was off limits, personally did not have any fear but there was a
certain “ attitude . ” The farther East you went the worse manners/ culture
were . Quite a few teachers at B urke graduated from Avery; however,
also many B urkeites . “ B urke was a good school and teachers were
interested in teaching . ” Mr . Grason imported a sense of excellence to
B urke .
26: 30 Current race relations or racial discrimination did not come up at B urke,
only later at Charleston High . Simms received her Masters in 1954 with
a thesis on a “ Comparative Study of Salaries in the Schools of SC”: vast
difference between black and white teachers, as well as for the upkeep of
black and white schools, and what was spent per child .
28: 10 She returned to Avery in 1952 because Mr . Potts had expressed an desire
for her to teach English . He had seen her at a seminar/ workshop from
B urke at Avery, co- opting English and History, which must have gotten
him interested . She then taught 9 th / 10 th grade . Was there a change
between 1942 and 1952? Student body changed, more, louder and
smarter kids . They came from all over, teachers chose them according to
test scores .
34: 50 Avery had a top musical program, opera excerpts, choral group .
Rhetorical school was gone . Simms impressions of Mr . John Potts: high
ideas, liked people, desirous of avoiding any confrontation with parents
if they were doctors . Possibly a little bit too easy on the children .
37: 20 Class and colored stratification still exists . Simms argues that it was less
obvious at Avery around that time, and did not exist . Asked by Dr .
Drago why some people are very bitter towards Avery, Simms recalls
that Ms . Clyde was disliked by many students . Unfair grades, since
Clyde was a mulatto she did not like black people . Simms argues Clyde
did not differentiate between complexions, rather personal excellence .
Mamie Fields stated that she did not go to Avery and went to Claflin
College in Orangeburg instead because she did not get the grades that
she deserved because of her darker color . Simms notes that “ none of it is
factual … people bring their own attitudes with them already . ”
39: 18 B rief references to NAACP and Civil Rights efforts: Edwin Harleston,
founder of the NAACP, DeCosta, J . Arthur B rown .
43: 00 Simms felt sorry that Avery closed . They were told it was a Fire Hazard,
declared unsafe with a period to vacate . There was talk that “ White
people in the neighborhood didn’t want us,” but we were there for so
many years . Her own guess: 1954 the ban of segregated schools took
place, fear that whites might have to come to Avery? It was a fine school
equaling any white school . It was unfair that students were not able to go
to the College of Charleston three blocks away, some would have easily
qualified .
46: 13 Tape ends abruptly .
Counter Index Topic
[ Cassette 1 of 1, Side B ]
0: 00 Patsy Willard- Ferguson was born December 10, 1859 ( free person born
in Charleston, Simms assumes) . Does her own family research . Jonas
Ferguson born at Whitehall, SC Lean Pond is close by . Francis- Marion
Whaley 6 Gibbes St was where the Francis Marion- Whaley residence
( Hotel on King St . was named after her) .
2: 33 At Avery, Simms was involved in drama and choral group, played
housekeeper in Jane Aire; music was integral part of Avery education .
4: 00 Tape ends
Mae Holloway Purcell (b. 1891) Discusses early family life, being born in Summerville, SC , as the daughter of Henry Holloway and Martha Hume Holloway. She goes into attending school in Summerville conducted by Emmaline Carr and moving to Charleston in 1903 to live with her uncle James Holloway, a harness maker. She then attended Avery with Birdie Clyde as a teacher and studied with students from Immaculate Conception School and Shaw Public School. She discusses the history of Shaw school and her connection with Fannie Holloway, one of few black teachers there (also mentions Sally Cruickshank and Essie Alston). She also discusses the Thomas Bonneau School on Beaufain St which her father attended and goes into the Holloway family genealogy. She recalls going from Avery to Fisk University and subsequently teaching in Athens, GA, where she became the preceptress of Knox boarding school, an American Missionary Association school. She then discusses teaching at Voorhees College in Denmark, SC, as well as Burke School and Shaw School in Charleston, SC, including talking about the receptiveness of the students to learning. She mentions being the first to receive a Palmer Writing Certificate and resigning from her teaching position after her marriage in 1935 because married women were not allowed to teach. She also recalls working at the Dart Hall Library under Susie Dart Butler and describes its origins and the segregated library system in Charleston. She recounts the history of the Brown Fellowship Society, of whom her family members were founders and what happened to the Brown Fellowship society graveyard after it was sold. Other subjects include the role which the NAACP and Congressman Thomas Miller played in allowing black teachers to teach in the 1910s.
ABSTRACT – Marcellus Forrest
AMN 500.001.002
Interviewee: Marcellus Forrest ( 1892- 1983)
Interviewers: Eugene Hunt, Margaretta P. Childs, and Edmund Lee
Drago, Avery Research Center
Interview date: 12 Feb 1981
Location: The home of Marcellus Forrest, Charleston, SC
Number of cassettes: 1 ( total length 61 minutes); 2 . wav files
Comments: Includes transcript, handwritten and typed notes by interviewers, as well as
handwritten notes by the interviewee.
In this interview, Marcellus Forrest emphasizes his attendance of the Mission School on
Nassau Street, conducted by the Reformed Church and attended by African Americans,
as well as his father’s life as a former slave and subsequently as a freedman. He talks at
length about his education and upbringing, his father’s job as a teacher, and focuses on
several Charleston area schools and teachers, including the influence of the Episcopal
Church headed by Bishop Stevens. Forrest mentions Avery, where he attended one year,
and his apprenticeship and subsequent career as a tailor in Charleston, including the
difficulties of the job. He also mentions his immediate family, including his sister’s
attempts to be a schoolteacher in Charleston and the difficulties that black teachers faced.
Of special note is the discussion of Forrest’s father ( who died 1904), a former slave
originally from Culpepper, VA who was sold to John Blake White of Charleston, SC.
His father constantly referred to his owner as his “ master and benefactor,” stating that
White was a kind master with two sons who taught the former slave to read and write.
He talks of his father’s duties as a slave, his experiences during the Civil War, and his
attempts to contact his family after the end of slavery. Once free, Forrests’ father, with
the benefit of his slight education, held several jobs and became involved with the
establishment of the Reformed Episcopal Church in Charleston in 1870. Also of note is
his discussion about black politicians during Reconstruction, including Robert Smalls’
escape from Charleston on the Confederate steamer, The Planter, and the operation and
popularity of black newspapers.
Note to archivist: Archival copies consist of original 500.001.002A and dub
500.001.002B.
The interview emphasizes Muriel Potts recollections of the Avery Normal Institute, with a special focuses on the educational and teaching-training components of the school. Potts talks at length about Avery providing summer school for teachers as a result of a pay equalization lawsuit which she was a part of in 1943. The summer school teacher training program provided black teachers with college credit and the skills to pass the National Teaching Examinations, used as benchmarks for pay equalization. Potts talks about boarding teachers from across the state at her house, and extending the program into the surrounding areas. She discusses the positive relationship Avery had with South Carolina State University, Benedict, Allen, and Voorhees Colleges, and the relationship with the American Missionary Association and its administrators Fred Brownlee and Ruth Morton. She also discusses the role of her husband, John Potts, the last principal of Avery, the merger with Burke School and the closing of the school in 1954 and touches on what they did in the intervening years, including teaching in Johns Island and accepting a post administering Voorhees College. She discusses the quality education provided by Avery and the breakdown of the education system in late 1960s and early 1970s due to a lack of teacher-training. Finally, she discusses colorism (what she calls class, caste, and color) in Charleston and the South, black-white relations, her and her husbands family genealogy and slave ancestry, and her adopted, dark-skinned daughter, Alma Young.
In this interview, Peter Poinsette discusses his family background including his fathers birth as a slave on Poinsette Plantation near Pinopolis and his position as a messenger during the Civil War. He was traded or sold to Colonel Gabriel Maingault and then traded to Mayer Macbeth after Maingaults wounding. Also, includes information about Peter fathers first marriage to Emmaline Douri and their child Alice Poinsette (ca.1881-1979). He continues at length about his father work for the Womens Exchange catering service and his father serving at the St. Cecelia Ball and the Cotillion Ball, including Peters assistance at the catering service, in which he served the Metz Band. He continues with information re Mr. Metz as a director of several bands. Peter mentions his fathers working on the Isle of Palms, and explains the process involved with making the trip. Mothers background is included. She is from Haiti and was brought to Florida by her uncle, William Duburst, a cigar maker. Peter talks about his siblings including Septima Poinsette Clark. Education is discussed including Peters time spent at Shaw school and Burke Normal and Industrial School. He mentions his teachers were all white and his decision to transfer to Avery was made after watching his sister, Septimas commencement exercise in 1916. His profession is discussed as well. Beginning in 1911 when he went to work for German grocers until his time at the Post Office (1936-1970).
TAPE LOG – Ruby Cornwell
AMN 500.001.001
Interviewee: Ruby Cornwell
Interviewer: Edmund Lee Drago and Eugene Hunt
Interview Date: 24 November 1982
Location: Ruby Cornwell’s house
Interview length: 53: 40 mins – 1 cassette tape, 2 . wav files.
TAPE INDEX
Counter Index Topic
[ Cassette 1 of 1, Side A]
1: 00 Drago asks details of life. Cornwell gives family history, stating that her
maternal grandmother graduated from Avery, Isabella Reeder Chavis in
1873. About maternal grandmother knows that they were from Charleston,
and that Ruby’s mother was born in Charleston. Mother’s father was in
ministry, Presbyterian. Great- grandmother was Isabella, a teacher.
3: 45 Isabella Reeder was in the second graduating class. Hunt suggests that
they were from a free black family. Ruby agrees, saying that her mother
told her that from her mother’s side, there were not slaves, and from her
father’s side, there were many Native Americans. Most family members
were ministers and teachers. Ruby did not know her grandfather but knew
both brothers on mother’s side, who were both ministers.
5: 30 Ruby’s father was a minister in the African Methodist Episcopal Church,
born in Forreston, SC. His full name was Durant Percival Pendergrass.
Ruby’s mother’s first name was Maude Beulah Chavis Pendergrass.
7: 00 Q: How was growing up in the home of an AME minister? A: Earliest
recollections are not of father as a minister; he entered the ministry after
he married. His was a farming family; he had no brothers or sisters. Father
wanted an education, so left for Hampton Institute in VA. He became a
wheelwright. He worked as a latrine cleaner.
10: 00 A little girl, Lizzie, lived with them, who looked like a white girl with
long brown hair. The father went to Hampton to study scientific farming,
but entered the ministry instead. He was a dedicated minister.
12: 00 Once he became a minister, the family had to move from Forreston by
train and details train ride. Arrived to Conway. Recalls death of little sister
and birth of other sisters.
15: 00 Cornwell left Conway to entered school in Augusta, GA. Then moved to
Wysacky, in Lee County, where father built the church. Ruby recounts
first school experiences.
18: 00 Father had dealings with white community; people lived like the days of
the plantation, in a sharecropping system, in houses from the plantation
days.
19: 30 Her family was seen acting like the white families. Her mother and white
people shared books; Ruby resented the fact that the woman called her
mother by her first name, Maude.
21: 00 Q: was violence, KKK etc central to her life? A: Did not experience
violence per se, but segregation. African Americans called whites
“ buckra,” and African word for “ ruler.” White people would come to hear
black people sing at church.
22: 30 Aunt Patsy lived on plantation, danced and sang. People came to Revival
meetings, and were supposed to shout to “ get religion.”
25: 00 Q: Did father have to deal with root medicine? A: Yes, woman came to
see her father in great distress because “ someone had put root on her.”
Father talked to her and prayed with her, telling her that prayer would
undo the hex. You couldn’t tell people that the hex did not exist; you just
had to accept that they thought it did, and help them deal with it as a
Christian minister. He dealt with it very seriously.
27: 40 End of cassette side A
[ Cassette 1 of 1, Side B]
0: 30 Recalling first experiencing segregation as a child. First time was realizing
that if white people came to visit the church, they assumed they would
have a special reserved section for them. “ They weren’t all that much
whiter than my own mother, you see, and not nearly as refined.” It was a
confusing thing for a little girl.
2: 00 As a little girl, I was lighter than other children, and they made us aware
of it. Discussion of bringing Porgy and Bess opera which required
interracial committee. Whites insisted on segregated audience; the plan
fell through.
4: 15 Some dark children did not like and resented lighter children. If you were
white, that was one thing. Later on, Ruby experienced the sensitivity, that
darker skinned folks felt because darker skinned people assumed lighter
skinned people thought they were better. Her mother did not like
Charleston because “ of this snobbishness.”
6: 00 Mother’s family was fair in complexion, from with Cherokee Indian
heritage. Her father was a minister.
7: 30 “ Black people themselves made so much of a fuss over us because we
were supposed to be these pretty little children… we weren’t of course.”
9: 00 After Wysacky, the family moved to Sumter because her father was made
the Presiding Elder of the AME church in the Sumter district. He was in
charge of churches around the area. Then he became the presiding area of
the Manning district.
10: 30 One year, Ruby came to Avery and lived with her mother’s uncle Rev. P. J .
Chavis, who was pastor of Mt. Zion at the time. That summer, she met
Mrs. Bethune, where she went to Daytona, FL stayed for three years and
graduated. Then she got a scholarship to Talladega.
11: 30 First impressions of Avery when entered in 9 th grade was “ quite
favorable.” “ I had heard of Avery for so long; it represented something
very big and very important.” Ms. Savage and Ms. Glover were teachers
of Ruby and her sisters. Mr. Cox was the principal. Her teachers included
Ms. Serena Hamilton ( married Bob Morrison), Mrs. Francis Gunner,
English teacher who became resident secretary of the YWCA in Brooklyn.
Ruby got a job in Brooklyn one summer though her. Had been sent to NY
for a YWCA conference with Talladega concert.
15: 00 Mr. Cox was Algebra and Biology teacher, a very good one. Cox made the
learning palatable because he had a good sense of humor. “ I appreciated
him a lot more as a teacher than as a principal… he was not a particularly
good administrator.”
16: 00 Discusses working with Mary McLeod Bethune in Florida.
19: 00 AMA appointed Ruby to teach Spanish at Avery. Nap Rivers taught other
languages. She did not feel comfortable teaching Spanish, having only one
year, so did not take the position. She took a position teaching English,
together with Edith McFall.
24: 00 Talks about relationship between Mr. Cox and the student body and Mr.
Cox and the administration. He was charming, handsome, and had
presence.
26: 00 End of cassette side B
American politician George Wallace speaks on his political views in New Orleans, LA ca 1967, most likely at a Citizens Council of Greater New Orleans gathering. He is introduced by Mississippi Governor Ross Barnett and thanks conservative Louisiana Judge Leander Perez (organizer of white supremacist Citizens Council of New Orleans). Wallace lays down his independent, populist platform, criticizing liberals (such as Sen. Robert Kennedy, Oregon Rep. Edith Green) and conservatives. He discusses Lurleen Wallaces (his wife) candidacy for Governor of Alabama (she is elected Jan 1967), criticizing Oregon Representative Edith Green for claiming that electing Lurleen Wallace would set the womans cause back 100 years. He talks about his own candidacy for President of the United States in 1964, including stating percentages won during campaign in various state and recapitulation issues in Maryland. He also talks about the upcoming Presidential election of 1968. He differentiates himself from Richard Nixon and Hubert Horatio Humphreys and expresses a need for alternative conservative candidate (he runs as an Independent in 1968). He criticizes Richard Nixon for endorsing Eisenhowers failed policies and supporting Lyndon B. Johnsons civil rights bill of 1964. To elect him, he states, would be like jumping from the frying pan into the fire. At length, Wallace broaches the issue of segregation, local government and states rights. He discusses federally mandated guidelines regarding schooling, supporting Governor Ross Barnett during 1962 integration of University of Mississippi, the flying of the confederate flag on the capitol building in Alabama, and the nationwide fight for principles and philosophy. Throughout the speech, he criticizes the liberal media, referring to them as intellectual morons.
